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  • ObelixxObelixx Vendée, Western FrancePosts: 26,253
    That's because the UK has never fully engaged with the EU and never used its strength and influence to stop or slow down the inexorable Franc-German alliance where increasing closeness is deemed essential to stop the cycle of centuries of war.   UK politicians enjoyed the free movement of goods offered by the Common Market but never lobbied or networked effectively against the political stuff despite having natural allies in Scandinavia and The Netherlands.

    They've also been happy to blame everything that goes wrong in the UK on Europe and its policies and people generally did not understand what the EU does for the good - peace, prosperity, security, working conditions and hours, education, infrastructure.  Before the vote, the Liverpool Echo published a list of what the EU had done for Liverpool.  There were 17 big projects funded to help build social, employment and infrastructure that would never have been funded by London-centric Westminster.  Liverpool voted Remain.

    The Welsh, Cornish, North-East and other industrial areas were not so perspicacious.  The fact is, the minute you agree to give power over money and decisions to anything more remote than your parish council you lose power over what happens in your street.  Multiply that up to town councils; borough councils, county councils, regional parliaments or councils then Westminster and Europe.   If yo want to influence at those levels you have to engage and lobby and work for it.   

    The UK didn't and now it's just and unbelievable mess which will take resolve and foresight and negotiation to solve and I don't see a lot of that about.
    "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
  • pansyfacepansyface PEAK DISTRICT DerbyshirePosts: 18,626
    Don’t watch this if you are offended by bad language, and if you do watch it and are offended, please don’t complain.

    He is known for his vulgarity, but for me this argument sums our position up perfectly.

    Apophthegm -  a big word for a small thought.
  • punkdocpunkdoc Sheffield, Derbyshire border.Posts: 9,746
    Fascinating how the same person can be viewed so differently by other people.
    I now believe May to be the worst PM we have ever had [ I thought that honour would never be taken from its previous holder ]
    She has never compromised, never discussed with anyone else, just ploughs on regardless.
    Southern trees bear a strange fruit
    Blood on the leaves and blood at the root
  • LiriodendronLiriodendron Scariff, County Clare, IrelandPosts: 6,996
    I'm sorry to say I agree with you, Punkdoc.
    We've signed the petition - but what good will come of it?
    "The one who plants trees, knowing that he will never sit in their shade, has at least started to understand the meaning of life."  Rabindranath Tagore
  • pansyfacepansyface PEAK DISTRICT DerbyshirePosts: 18,626
    If you don’t sign, Liri, nothing will come of it.
    If you do sign, something may come of it.
    Apophthegm -  a big word for a small thought.
  • A large part of the problem is the fact that the EU is designed like a prison. We are all tied together by a Gordian knot which nobody knows how to unravel, and it will cost us tens of billions of £s to escape. The designers of the EU should have learned from the Soviet Union. When it disintegrated in 1991 the member states were free to simply walk away, which they did with little difficulty, even creating their own nations with their own currency etc. It would have been better if the EU was similar, perhaps with membership lasting for ten years which you can renew at the end if you wish.

  • DyersEndDyersEnd Posts: 730
    There have been lies and exaggerations from both sides but I've yet to hear a sensible reason for leaving from anybody. At best I hear 'control over our own destiny' and at worst 'a return to the good old days and no immigrants'.
    I signed the petition earlier today when there were fewer than 2 million signatories - now there are just under 3.3.
  • ObelixxObelixx Vendée, Western FrancePosts: 26,253
    There's a big difference tho.  The Soviet Union block was imposed after the 2nd World War by force by the chaps with more and bigger guns and the will to remove personal freedoms and life form anyone who opposed them.

    The EU has come about form the wreck of post war Europe and was formed by those with a vision of easing recovery and prospeity by the freer exchange of goods and people.  At its beginnings, Belgium got Italians to mine its coal after losing so much of its work force to the Nazi invasion and enslavements in their factories.   The Italians got cheaper coal and iron to rebuild their industries.   Benelux also formed to make trade easier and then it grew as others saw the advantages and were desperate to make alliances to prevent more war.

    Churchill himself said that what was needed was a United Europe but, being hung-up on Empire he never envisaged that Britain would need it or could benefit from it and certainly not help build it in a sustainable manner.  When Britain did finally realise it was a good thing to join they were turned down and that went on till grump, Churchill hating De Gaulle was gone.  In order to join, Britain had to dump its trade deals and imports form the Commonwealth which had serious repercussions for NZ, Oz and others.   They have survived and eventually thrived by changing their trading alliances and subsidy structures.

    I can't see the British parliament having that vision or strength somehow because very few are looking any higher or further than their own navel and the next elections.    

    "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw
  • DyersEndDyersEnd Posts: 730
    I agree Obelix and I can't see that the Soviet Union operated in any way like the EU does Alan C. 
  • raisingirlraisingirl East Devon, on the Edge of Exmoor.Posts: 4,723
    The real fault lies with Cameron who was trying to fend off UKIP then May's total intransigence.  
    Both true but you missed out a key step - the 2017 general election. May was so sure that the population would all reject Corbyn that she gambled on getting a big majority and lost. She put herself - and all of us - into the situation where a handful of religious fanatics, who can't even find a way to compromise over language on signposts, can bring her government down. Therefore a big rump of Tories won't back a deal the DUP don't like because they know it'll lead to another general election and they may well lose their seats and control over the 'future relationship' negotiations.

    On top of which May seems to be working on the premise that if she refuses to discuss any other possibilities than her deal, people at the extremes of leave and remain camps will vote for it for fear of something worse. What's actually happening is they aren't voting for it in the hope of (in their own, very different, terms) something better.

    She is doubly hoist by her own petard.

    I do blame Cameron for three things - leaving the right wing European political group (as demanded by the ERG) so abandoning any allies we may have had in the more moderate right wing governments across the continent. That meant that when he tried to get his 'new deal' agreed, no one would help him and he largely failed. Then he caved in to pressure from UKIP. And finally his referendum campaign was woeful.

    It's not May's fault the vote was called or lost, but once that had happened and she was PM there were other ways Theresa May could have gone with this. And especially, had she not called that election, we'd not be having anywhere near as much trouble over what is an insoluble problem that nobody wanted or really discussed during the referendum campaigns - the backstop.
    “There is no military solution
    Doesn't always end up as something worse”
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