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Very interesting discussion on End of Life care - join us

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  • Hostafan1Hostafan1 Posts: 34,888
    in 2005 I was waiting to have surgery on my hip. I was in constant pain for 18 months. I don't mean niggly, PITA pain, I mean screaming in agony , begging to die, pain.
    I was on morphine for 6 months and still had to crawl on my hands and knees to get up stairs to bed at night.
    I contemplated suicide constantly , the only thing which kept me going was knowing it would end after surgery. Had I not had that " light at the end of the tunnel" I simply would not have carried on. 
    Nobody can understand that level of pain until they have experienced it .
    To inflict it on anyone else for a second longer than is necessary ,down to some duty to religion or morality or anything else, is cruelty beyond measure.
    Devon.
  • punkdocpunkdoc Posts: 15,039
    My perspective on this, probably comes from a slightly different viewpoint, in that I spent my career as an intensive care consultant.
    My greatest worry is, medicine has progressed at an exponential rate, and we now have the ability to keep many people alive, that would have died a few years ago.
    However, we rarely seem to consider whether keeping these people alive, is in their benefit.
    Many doctors I worked with, thought that if you could do something, then you should.

    It is clearly much easier for a Dr. to do something, than to do nothing, but is often, IMO, the wrong thing to do.

    In respect of voluntary euthanasia, I have always believed, that it should be the right of the individual to decide, unless they are clearly not capable of making such a decision.
    How can you lie there and think of England
    When you don't even know who's in the team

    S.Yorkshire/Derbyshire border
  • Hostafan1Hostafan1 Posts: 34,888
    My sister in law's mother had terminal lung cancer and tumors in her brain. The doctor said something along the lines of ;
    " at your age, surgery would be tricky....... What do you think?"
    Her reply;
    " Oh no Son, don't waste your time and money on me. I'm 92 and I've had my life. Use your time and money saving someone else who has a life to live. I've had mine. No thanks, but it's nice of you to offer" 

    Job done.
    Devon.
  • punkdocpunkdoc Posts: 15,039
    Sadly Hosta, in some cases, the Dr. would just have said, this is what is wrong, and this is what I will do to put it right, without much thought about whether it was the right course of action.
    How can you lie there and think of England
    When you don't even know who's in the team

    S.Yorkshire/Derbyshire border
  • Lily PillyLily Pilly Posts: 3,845
    As has been said, unless you have watched a loved ones life end there is little to say.

    We have lost a few but the first,sadly, was my bil at 23, He was my pal and I met my oh through him. I was fortunate enough to know his team and they kept me aware of his deterioration so I could prepare the family. Looking back it was all handled wrongly.

    Times have to change and I do believe they will but medicine has to acknowledge that a good death is as important as any other condition to be managed.  A lot of medics seem to see it as failure. Bodies need to be healed, even when death is calling.

    Once  the law changes, and it has to as we can’t afford to keep everyone alive, I believe things will happen quite quickly.

    The Dr Shipmans of this world have done untold damage. Many gps would help a terminally ill person along the road. Pneumonia used to be called the “old people’s friend”

    time to shut up. Sorry
    Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
    A A Milne
  • punkdocpunkdoc Posts: 15,039
    Too many people use the example of Dr. Shipman, when describing a bad Dr. By all accounts, he was actually quite a good Dr., he was however, an evil man.
    How can you lie there and think of England
    When you don't even know who's in the team

    S.Yorkshire/Derbyshire border
  • Janie BJanie B Posts: 963

    Haven't read through the whole thread, but wanted to say thanks to whoever posted the NHS link to get a "dnr" in place. My Mum is wanting to do this.

    Also, how lucky are our old folks to have us to be advocates for them (even though, in some cases, this is clearly not enough...)? I do a lot of voluntary work with old people, and the ones with no family to fight for them at the end often have the saddest of deaths...
    Lincolnshire
  • plant pauperplant pauper Posts: 6,904
    Each individual case brings it's own complications. My dad was taken into hospital with advanced prostate cancer and about six hours after being admitted his consultant diagnosed Vascular Dementia. We had no idea as mother had just been coping with his 'odd' behaviour.
    That was the game changer! His decisions weren't worth spit unless they suited the medical or legal profession. He was fit to decide he wanted to leave hospital and was sent home in a taxi at 4.30am but wasn't fit to decide to put my mother's name on the house deeds. That's not how things were done in their day so 'they' very kindly told my mum that she could have her day, should he go into long term care, in the house that she worked and paid for to which she replied 'that's bloody good of you!'
    He was fit to remind them that he had missed his injection for pernicious anaemia but not fit to decide that he'd had enough and please let him die in peace.
    Sort out your wishes before you get a 'bolt from the blue' dementia diagnosis otherwise you've had it. You're sucked into 'the system' and spat out however and whenever 'the system' feels like it.
    The individuals taking care of my dad couldn't have been more caring, except one jumped up oick with whom I had to have a word, but rules is rules and presumably they must be followed for good or bad.
  • FireFire Posts: 19,092
    @fidgetbones "He was hallucinating as his organs shut down and was screaming in pain. I had to have a paddy with the doctor who wouldn't prescribe analgesia of any sort, or any tranquilliser. "

    Why on earth would he not prescribe pain relief? It sounds horrendous.

    @plant pauper "Sort out your wishes before you get a 'bolt from the blue' dementia diagnosis otherwise you've had it."

    Absolutely. And get your power of attorney sorted early (before you get sick or very old) so that your loved ones can act on your behalf, enforce medical wishes and sort house sale etc.

    @Hostafan1   " I was in constant pain for 18 months, screaming in agony. I was on morphine for 6 months and still had to crawl on my hands and knees to get up stairs to bed at night."

    Why were they not able to manage your pain better and why were you in a place where you had to crawl upstairs to bed?
    .......

    My own dad refused to talk about death, wills, living will, DNR, power of attorney or moving, such was his fear of it all. For 20 years I have lived in dread of his last years, having to scramble to find proper care for him and somewhere to live. All the battles. It caused the family so much distress, which he seemed immune to. At 84 the denial of old age and decease is pure head in the sand. And it has major percussions.
  • FireFire Posts: 19,092
    @josusa47  "Thou shalt not kill".

    We are back to the influence of religion again.
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